I am not making light of this, since I am sure that Danny and others have sunk alot of time and money into their businesses. I have a couple questions maybe someone can answer:
- Are they subject to annual inspections by health & code?
- If they sell milk, or other items that require a permit by a convenience store, do they have to have a permit?
- What is the annual permit fee to operate this business?
- What do they do with the grease?
- Do they pay any taxes on their equipment like other businesses do?
This past week-end I went to Providence to see the Fire Water, although there were vendors selling lights and other items there was nobody selling food except in on specific area down by the financial district. Their reasoning must be that if you want to get something to eat, they want you to go to one of the restaurants. Can you argue with that?
I only wish the same coverage and attention was given to 1)City Square, 2) the Airport and the 3) the proliferation of low income housing that is taking over the core of our city. Stay tuned for tomorrow's story in the Telegram on a party on Southgate Place announcing the two million dollar grant for the seven million dollar three story 19 unit low income apartment building.
55 comments:
Are they subject to annual inspections by health & code?
Yes
If they sell milk, or other items that require a permit by a convenience store, do they have to have a permit?
Yes
What is the annual permit fee to operate this business?
No idea, but considering our current regs are older than some of the people debating the issue, they should probably be higher.
What do they do with the grease?
Throw it in Indian Lake, carp love the stuff.
Do they pay any taxes on their equipment like other businesses do?
What equipment taxes are you referring to? Do we have a cash register tax in Worcester?
I have yet to hear a single vendor complain about new regs, just these regs. I think a set of regulations based on some sort of research or impact study would be welcomed by city vendors.
I agree with all of you that the time wasted on this issue is asinine, the only thing more asinine is having a council bring such a poorly fleshed out set of ordinances to the floor. You want discussion on City Sq, Bill? I don't think many councilors or Mike O can handle City Sq, Bill. This is like a high school student council debating soda machine placement and finding it too difficult.
And I noticed you differentiated between food and retail vendors in your providence report. Just so we're all clear these regs cover all vendors, for some reason food vendors keep getting mentioned but this will put all vendors out of business in the affected area. Mind you, vendors we don't even have, which goes back to the time issue, why debate a problem that doesn't exist when we have actual issues on the table.
Here we go again!
B:
I really do not know where I stand on this street vendor issue. This post was to just try to get some answers and hope that we can put this behind us.
That said, if I was the Irish Times or some other restaurant and just spent $5,000 to comply with the new FOG ordinance and a guy was able to sell food right in front of my establishment who did need to comply with the FOG ordinance. I would be furious.
By taxes I meant the underlying owner of the restaurant pays a commercial tax rate on the property. Does the owner of a vending cart have to pay any similar tax on his "place of business"? We always talk about protecting and building the commercial tax rate.
I will try to find out the annual fee. Anonymous, you are right. Maybe we should ask the vending carts to go up the airport and maybe we would get some answers and actions on our outstanding questions.
Bill
Fees
I think I got this right.
1) Mobile Food Permit 175
2) State (62) or local (25) permit
3) Serv Safe certified (approximately 150) if you serv anything other then hot dogs.
If you serve only hot dogs and just go with the local permit, you can operate for $200. If you want to sell more then hot dogs then you need to get Serv Safe certified every two years.
I know B and all the other licensed 50 licensed food vendors will get mad, but $200 is peanuts. If you want to build new construction in the City of Worcester, it costs $1320 per bedroom for sewer hook-up. Maybe we should increase this fee to more like $500.
Correction Serv Safe Certified every five years
I'm not a vendor, just not a fan of illogical thinking.
You talk about protecting the commercial tax base, Bill. I talk about improving the general economic picture of the city. Two very different things.
b:
After you are done improving the general economic picture of the city, tell me what do you think of someone being able to operate a business in the City of Worcester for $200 per year.
Bill
As I said quite clearly in my first response, considering our current regs are older than some of the people debating the issue, the fees should probably be higher. But this ordinance isn't about fee structure, it about supposed threats to public safety and bad protectionist business practice.
I don't think "B" has a permit for the stuff he serves up but he should!
B;
Enlighten us all. What is the answer here.
Bill
Are you kidding Bill?
How about we don't regulate things that are not problems? Is that really a difficult concept?
Cute graphic at... http://worcesterwonderland.blogspot.com/
b:
Tell the owners of restaurants that do not want these vending carts in front of their businesses that there is no problem.
Bill
I will tell them what I have been saying since this thing came up.
If a dude selling hot dogs is stealing your business it's time for you to reevaluate.
More simply put, if hot dog dude is stealing your business, figure out how to steal it back. Also, if in this metro area there isn't enough business to go around businessmen and women should not be bickering at each other, they should be banding together and going to city hall and asking them to give them answers why not. There is absolutely no plausible reason why in a city this large there isn't enough business to go around. People need to work together not against each other.
How about the restaurant owners who do want these vending carts in front of their businesses? We have just as many on that list.
Since when is it the job of government to pad thin margins by holding the hand of business. Do you also think the bookseller would still be here if only the council had stepped up and banned amazon.com deliveries to Worcester? Isn't it possible that there are businesses in Worcester that do poorly, because they are not well run? Why the need to scapegoat in the Worcester business community?
As a consumer I don't want to eat at an established restaurant that fears loosing their business to a water dog. It speaks volumes to how they view their own business model.
B:
you are out of your mind. name me one restaurant owner that wants to have a food vendor in front of their business.
obviously you have never run your own business and have no idea how much it costs a restaurant owner to operate in the city of worcester.
Bill
Bill, how in God's name would you run a business in a bigger city where there is competition at every turn?
Answer:
Be nothing but absolutely awesome.
Why do you think every bagel in NYC tastes absolutely amazing? How do you think they got that way? What do you think motivated all of them to make the best bagels humanly possible?
I should make a list much like your departed business list of all the attitudes and perceptions that keep this city floundering in mediocrity. One of them is this attitude that you should open a business and simply be aloud to stay in business simply because you were there first. It's asinine. You want to stay in business? Compete.
If you know for a fact that your business and your competitor's business's are both running top notch high quality establishments that cater 100% to the needs of their demographic then you band together and go to city hall. It seems like I don't see much of either of these things going on in the city.
I have been saying for years that the bar of quality is frightfully low in Worcester, there are many reasons for this but this feeling in the city that it is your god given right to have zero competition is one of the causes of this.
If you are losing business don't whine about it, step up and take that business back.
See to me it's so friggin simple.
Say I sell $8 hamburgers inside a room with a TV and a bar type atmosphere. A guy outside my place sells $2 hot dogs. If people aren't buying my $8 hamburgers it's because they feel my $8 hamburgers aren't worth it and they are just looking for an alternative anyway. If they really liked my $8 hamburgers they wouldn't even pay the vendor and his $2 hot dogs any mind at all.
If there are 10 people and 2 of them buy my hamburgers and 8 of them are buying his hot dogs then I need to exhaust all measures to try and get some of those 8 people to buy my hamburgers. I am going to make the most unbelievable hamburgers anyone has ever had and then I am going to do as much research as I can to figure out how to make the atmosphere inside my place to be so absolutely ridiculously awesome that people have to come in. And THEN I am going to make the facade and the signage un-frigging-ignorable so that anyone who has never seen the business asks themselves, "hey what's that place, what goes on in there?" If I can't do this I don't deserve to be selling hamburgers and I deserve to be put out of business by a hot dog guy.
If I do all this though and all else fails then I need to say to the hot dog guy, hey, there are 100 people on the surrounding blocks, let's you and I work together and try to make our block more desirable and attractive than those other blocks so that we can increase the odds that we both get business.
If all of this fails then and only then do you take steps like what are being taken now and try to put the guy out of business. Trying to put the guy out though should not be your first course of action. It is cowardly and self serving and does not serve the best interests of the city of Worcester.
OK, all this arguing is making me hungry ... I'm grabbing lunch !!!
Coney Island, HERE I COME ...or maybe Wild Willy's ...or maybe Hot Dog Annie's... or maybe pizza...
Harry T
Worcester, MA
Gee Bill ... that August moratorium on airport discussions can't end soon enough, eh?
Food vendors , low income housing, etc must be giving you carpal tunnel syndrome from all the typing!
Harry T
Worcester, MA
Harry:
well said. Gabe there is a thing called overhead.
The guy who is charging $8 for a hamburger has just paid $5,000 for brand new grease traps, $20,000 for a updated fire suppression system and is paying $ 20+ per thousand in property taxes. I will not even get into workers compensation for his employees or the taxes he(or she collects) for the commonwealth.
You want him to compete with someone who pays $200 per year. The great cities you refer are great because they protect people who invest in these cities.
Bill
Bill if to begin with his hamburgers and his atmosphere were top notch the hot dog guy wouldn't even be an issue.
Screw it let's just call a spade a spade.
"Irish" Times is a crappy business at best. I ordered an "Irish" whiskey at "Irish" Times at the bartender tried to pour me a Jim Beam. This tyoe of employee runs rampant throughout this place. I'll have the hot dog. Thanks.
Garden Fresh mean well enough but geez your brick and mortar business couldn't look more like a push cart if you tried. Where did you get that signage? YOUR SIGN IS A TARP! Not to mention the fact the has been quoted as saying that the propane on the hot dog carts is a serious public health threat due to possible explosion. Do you trust this guy making your food? Again, I will take the hot dog.
This shouldn't even be an issue. Those hot dog carts shouldn't be affecting the business of Irish Times and Garden Fresh in the least. Not one bit. If it is the only finger they should be pointing is at themselves. You don't want to have to worry about competition? Make it part of your entire business plan that you are going to leave no stone unturned in being the best most kick ass business you can be instead of just half assing it because you have no competition.
Guess what Worcester business owners the city is growing, and like Phil P says, all it's going to cause for the old guard is problems.
Too bad, you slept on your businesses for far too long, time to wake up and figure out how to change and compete with the times.
You obviously haven't been paying attention to the issue at all, Bill. Alec Lopez and Sherri Sedowski, owners of the Armsby Abby and The Dive Bar have spoken in favor of the vendors and the article in todays paper has Jose Murphy’s going on the record to do the same.
Not everyone uses government to prop up their businesses, Bill.
Gabe:
This is not just the Irish Times, there is not a highly regulated business in the city of Worcester that would want someone in front of their business on the sidewalk competing against them.
In the newspaper today Joff Smith cited how Boston says it is is o'kay if the underlying business will agree to it. Danny's Hot Dogs asked some businesses, again in the newspaper, and they said no.
Bill
So in your eyes, Bill, a function of a municipality is to protect existing business from potential competition?
Bill the business that said no is Fresh Way. Have you had that pizza? Seriously have you had that pizza? This may sound facetious but it is no exaggeration that I could probably put them out of business with some Elio's and a toater oven. Really, it's that bad and they have gotten by for this long being the only game on the block. They are also, as well as Golden I am sure, feeling the pinch because Wig Wam in Billings Sq is doing late night too and they are not only unquestionably the best late night pizza in the city they may have the best pizza there is in the city. The inside is done up real nice and you cannot help but notice their signage when you drive through Billings Sq.
Fresh Way pizza is absolutely god awful. If it was half as good as Wig Wam they would be able to compete evenly with the vendor, but they can't because their product is substandard. Figure out how to make better pizza.
Also, when I ask for a fork and a knife, so I can eat your greasy slop don't shake your head and mutter "Americans" under your breath.
The three main businesses listed in today's Telegram article, Irish Times, Fresh Way Pizza and Garden Fresh all have much much much bigger issues to worry about than street vendors. Is it the street vendors fault that Irish Times hasn't paid their taxes? C'mon now Bill, you are a businessman right? You know better than this right?
By the way, you don't hear Wings Over Worcester doing any complaining during all this do you?
You don't because that stuff is so damn good that they can't handle the business.
The only people complaining are people who know for a fact that they have an inferior product. Close em all, more room for quality establishments. More quality establishments, more quality people, more quality people, less affordable housing.
See Bill, it all comes full circle.
And da winna is...
Hey has anyone gotten Paul Giorgio / WOMAG, a purported "dining" expert, what he thinks about all this?
Who cares... ha ha!!!
Speaking of WOMAG, it was just reported that Allen Fletcher has sold it to The Holden Landmark Corporation. Here is the link to the story from the Worcester Business Journal - http://www.wbjournal.com/news41448.html
It appears as though everyone will need to reapply for their jobs. I don't think this is a very good move for Worcester's alternative weekly. Landmark bought the weekly Millbury-Sutton Chronicle and IMHO, it is a shadow of what it was under the previous ownership. The T&G should be thrilled though with this move.
Gabe:
Next time you go to Wings ask them how they would feel if you put a hot dog cart on their sidewalk and sold hot dogs and soda.
Bill
I can not believe this gets more interest then 7 million dollar low income apartment buildings?
If I'm going to WoW, its for wings. If a hot dog cart is in front of the door, its not gonna change my mind.
And who gives a toot what WoW thinks. Earn my business.
Bill you've lived in Woosta too long.
Toodles!
It dosen't get more interest, Bill. Some of us are capable of multitasking.
As a matter of fact I actually referenced low income housing in this very thread!
No comment though.
I'm having Filet Mignon at Picasso's tonight in Barre with my pal Vinnie...wanna join us Harry & Will II
and to think we were all bloggah buddies before this vendor issue happened?
I say we alll make up at my New Orleans Jazz Bash which is slowly turning in to a Blues Bash cause I can't find a Jazz Band locally for a reasonable price-I'm serving lots of Andoulle Sausage..no hot dogs
We're sucking down Big Honkin Stouts - so thick that you could eat it with a fork - and kraut dogs!
Gabe I saw that post over at Wonderland. You're far too nice.
Nothing less than a public tar & feathering in front of city hall. 8)
Am I wrong that the stockade is where you just lock them up so their faces are way out there for the public to do whatever they want to them, because that's thing I am talking about.
Understood - a good suggestion Gabe.
Now you're thinking like a true patriot. Hey, I'll let you wack em with a stick while I pour tar on em. My wife will manage the feathering part; she's out gathering old feather pillows. Oh, and I'll have a couple baskets of ripe tomatoes on hand too. Maybe I'll sneak in a few rocks.
Batteries.
It's hard to see them coming but you know it when they land.
Wild Will & I are ready to finance one of you youngah cats for office..not for nuttin guys..one of ya has to put yer money were your mouths are..the way to get rid of incompetence is to fight it head on-meaning the next election one of you make a go of it
Both Wild Will and I got investments in the cess pool of the city and have for years..we are banging it out every day..but I have been saving my pennies and I'm ready for some new blood:>)
If we could just get Buckpaxton to stop calling everyone with a differing opinion a douche bag he could be the man....or you Gabe!
old habits die hard Paulie.
we just ripped out the rear soffit on my house three floors up...121 years of pigeon shit exposed..always thought it was the smell of rice and beans from next door..anyway about 1/4 ton of feathers also..we do not deliver you will have to come and get Gabe
ahh they said the same thing about Sam Adams..he called everyone a douche bag...even Martha Washington!
I'm ready to finance the run Buckpaxton..you in Wild Will??
If you get elected only Gary Rosen will understand you..not sure many on the Council could handle yer curveball
BTW..I had high hopes for Joff Smith..I thought going youngah was a plus..in his case I would suggest not...was there much difference from the Cat he defeated in the first election..both snoozahs
A guy in his 30's should no be able to use the words "fabric that makes up our community"
Ah yes... batteries! Damn, I shoulda thought about that. I know where there's a drop off container.
Batteries, they definitely would leave a memorable impression on the recipient.
By the way, we are not going to agree on everything. On this issue I disagree with Gabe.
Gabe if you ever want to run for City Council you got my support. Must admit, however, Paul Collyer being the d4 rep looks very attractive to me.
Bill
I would vote for Paulie and Gabe...
They could run as a team under the slogan "Welcome Back, Mr. Collyer"
Harry T
Worcester, MA
Paulie:
Thanks for the invite, I am off to see the Worcester Tornadoes tonight...and I WILL have a hot dog in honor of today's thread.
Had Betsy been weaving a flag , I would have definitely been there !!! Baseball, hotdogs and apple pie, OH MY !!!!
:-)
Harry T
Worcester, MA
thanks for the votes mates..but the political hatchet men would have a field day with me and my less than honorable at times past:>)
It took me many years of lumps and sit downs with Johnny Law to realize what my ole man was saying when he said "it is time to find a new profession son cause you are not very good at what you are doing" (always getting caught by the law:>)
Nice pic of me below in 1981:>)
http://pauliespointofview.blogspot.com/
I'll leave the CC politics to the squeeky clean...something I am today but I can't turn back the clock:>) and just keep working in my hood..I like getting dirty and working up a sweat..someone has to do it..
Paulie:
Lets hear more about you checkered past.
Bill
Wow, this thread has exploded.
I have to add my two cents:
As a newer Worcesterite and someone who purchased here with the hopes of betting on downtrodden city with potential for so much more I stand with Gabe in the pro street vendor camp.
I can understand where Bill is coming from talking about taxes and overhead, but that is the playing field. The push cart/vendor business is a lower overhead/taxes type business. All business owners should be looking at all these things before proceeding with a business plan. Don't hate the player, hate the game.
If these brick and mortar restaurants need to supplement their high overhead perhaps they should open up a pushcart and place it in a another part of the city. If the product is so good it should bring people into their flagship store.
I wish we could ask all these street vendors what their daily take is so we could see how much money they are taking away from these established tax paying businesses.
But as a consumer I agree with many others. It is about your product and the service you provide.
Have I tried as many local businesses as I should in the year and a half I have lived here? Probably not. But that is because my disposable income has decreased since buying my place and I have found establishments that I feel welcome in and provide a good product and atmosphere that I am happy to spend my money in.
There were days last week that I was dreaming of Wings Over Worcester while at work. Why? Because the chicken is damn good and I won't be sidetracked by a vendor, because their product is tasty as hell.
Crystal and I have been huge fans of Wigwam Pizza since it opened and have been there 3 or 4 times since it opened. Why? Because the dough is awesome, the service is good and the pizza is tasty.
For fine dining do we go to Bocado? Yes. Because bartenders remember your name and the food has NEVER been anything less than bad.
Do we do all our drinking at The Dive and The Abbey? Most definitely. Those establishments, their owners and clientèle cater to our sensibilities.
Will I stop and have a pulled pork sandwich outside The Dive between drinks or on my way home? I hope so, but the council wants otherwise.
If the biggest "safety concern" is with the El Del truck that should be looked at on its own and action taken on that vendor alone and not everyone as a whole.
you'll have to hire one of those political hatchet men...I aint talkin'....no Picasso's tonight..ended up with pizza in downtown Barre, MA - nice town
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