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16 comments:
To repeat myself here......which i do tend to do.............no one finds it unusual that the City of Worc and gov't money sources have subsidized The Hand It Over Theatre to the tune of millions in construction funding as well as no property taxes for 10 years. I estmte the loss of tax revenue alone is $750,000 annually.....that's 3/4's of a Million $$$$$$$ for you St Johns, public School, and Somerville guys :) yet the city treats the Summer Nationals and who knows what others like they are the proverbial red headed step child when it comes to money for events. Should we call the MCAD?
Then there's the pushcart vendors......I'll be gleeful if the city gets their lunch eaten by these small businessmen......
Feel the need to respond to Jahn's post. If Hanover wasn't given incentives to invest in the building would any of the renovations happened? No one knows for sure, but I would suggest not. I'm a resident of Worcester who strongly supports incentives to expand the commercial tax base especially if the building has sat dormant or is abandoned. I applaud the city for helping make Hanover happen.
Jahn:
I understand your point about the Hanover, but if you ask me we need to do more of this not less. Instead of only having select people who are able to negotiate this, target an area or class of buildings up front with the same treatment.
The number 1 priority of the City of Worcester needs to be that expansion of the commercial must start now or it will be gone. Then where will the lowest residential tax rate be?
Bill
Chris there are investment INCENTIVES and then there are outright construction subsidies that have proablay paid for 1/3 to 1/2 of the cost of renovating The Hand It Over Theatre. IMO, that is way too much of an incentive.......the taxpayers are basically 33% to 50% payors of the Hand It Over Theatre's reconstruction yet we dont even own any of it............at Least Nobama got the taxpayers 50 or 60% of GM....!!!!!
Chris sorry but The Hand It Over Theatre didnt expand the commercial tax base. Please be advised The Hand It Over Theatre which should be paying $750,000 in commercial property taxes has been given a 10 year waiver of their taxes and rest assured when the 10 yr period expires the so called "entrepeneurs" who dreamed up this finacial disaster for the taxpayers will back in front of the City Council bangin' their tin cups like the dudes lining Park Avenue......however unlike the dollar bill panhadlers they will be asking for another 10 pass on their annual real estate tax bill of $750,000 ........thats $7.5M ove 10 years.......Lord where are Raffa, Petrone & Ciolociolio on this insane give away .
Bill, shame on you .....in case you havent noticed the commercial tax base is gone......please refence your previous blog of late last week. Agian this is an expansion of NON TAXABLE COMMERCIAL property....once again to the tune of $7.5M over 10 years.
would you folks also advocate that the city subsidize the exapnsion of Clark Univ or HC or WPI.......it's the same thing......all non property tax paying non profits expanded with TP'ers $$$$..........insanity
In 1967 Worcester Center was going to be our savior...then in 1993 the Outlet Malls make over was going to be out salvation....then in 1995 Medical city was going to be our Salvation........now it's going to be City Square.......Bull++++ me once shame on you......Bull++++ 3 or 4x times shame on .......you're all smoking Left Handed Luckies if you think that City Sq is going save downtown Worc..............you have to change the people......not the infrastructure..........just ask Soffan who built the White Pinnacle Tower at Main & Madison next to the then Salvation Army and opposite the then Public welfare office how that attempt at getting people downtown who have discrretionary income went down in flames.....
How make overs of the Worc Common and Lincoln Sq Have I lived through............God I cant recall........a relative of mine came into town last week...had to go see the city clerks office..........tols me he couldnt beleive the riff raff chillin' on the Common and the weaterh wasnt even nice.........and in summer during the niceweather it wll be even worse.......
Jahn:
Let me get this straight. You are right, it does not expand our tax base during the TIF. The hope is that when the TIF expires and the property is taxed at its full value, we see the added tax revenue. Lets also hope there is development around the Hanover that is inspired by the Hanover Theatre to expand the tax base.
I do admit, however, that this was done retroactively. There should be targeted properties and/or areas that anyone can purchase or development a building and enjoy these same benefits.
Jahn, this may not be the greatest idea but we all agree that the commercial tax base is shrinking on us. Let me ask you this, what would your idea be to expand it or are you saying it is too late?
Bill
Bill when The Hand It Over Theatre TIF expires and the operating entity has to co up with the anuual property taxes, the entire business will be way under water due to teh add'l taxes....therefore I suggest to you the tax break will be continued when it is set to expire in 10 years.
To give copious amts of taxpayer money AND AND AND then have these snakes come in when all teh taxpayer funded constr is complete and say...."Oh BTW folks we need a 10 years waiver of our $750,000 property taxes"... is sleaze ball move IMO. Millions in gub'mint subsidies to renovate The Hand Over Theare and then they come bangin' their tin cup for another $7.5 in waived property taxes is preposterous....these folks are consummate non profit profiteeers.....the counciljust hands it to them .......
Save our Poolz????....................Screw that the council rather save The Hand It Over........and now it's all broomed under teh carpet out of sight of a decade......hey Phil how about you hit up the Hand It Over for a PILOT (Poolz In Lieu Of Theatres) payment???
If I am the Foothills folks. I am ripped at the BS that basically kicks my Fotthills right out of teh city of Seven Hills. Bill, the Foothills vs The Hand It Over Theatre is analogous to being a private developer in Worc trying to compete agaisnt the CDC's.
It is to late, however one idea to indirectly expand the commercial tax base would be to cease (moratoruim) low income housing construction, the occupants of which (Pajama People) drive middle class shoppers out of Worcester. How many of you folks want your significant other crossing that Common at 730 PM on a cold December night after a night of shopping in Worcester?
Populate the downtown with solid middle class citizens and business will find its own way to Worcester w/o any incentives.
Term limit the city councillors will also help.
Jahn
I got to admit that I did not like it either that they asked for the locking of the assessed value after they were done?? Imagine if you or I build a project then asked the city to freeze the value for ten years when we were done???
Jahn, you do not make good points but I think the general idea could be a good one. Tell me, what is your idea to increase the Commercial Tax Base?
Bill
Bill this notion that the commercail tax base can be increased by new construction is flawed. Many articles have been written about malls, sports stadiums, industrial parks, civic centers, and the like that have been incentivized with gov't money.....only too look back years later and realize strategic mistakes were made by the municipalities that offered the subsidies.
My thinking is that the bees will always find their way to the honey...........so when there is a certain threshold population with certian threshold amts of income in a locale...then businesses will move to serve that population just like bees to honey. No incentives are needed when a capitalist sees a chance to make make money. Conversely, inundate a locale with low and moderate income people and you'll see a central business district that just implodes and is unable to support a McD's or a Burger king.
Inundate the city with people who have disposable income and businesses will come and with the businesses comes commercial property tax revenue......this notion of building it and they will come is flawed. Reference my examples in previous posts today.
SO i guess that begs the question ... what will draw people of means to Worcester?? Well paying jobs located in the city and reasons for the people working at those well paying jobs to want to live here.
We could also use a better roadway system.
I do not doubt that we have lost commercial property and the related commercial property tax revenues...however I think that sometimes statistics dont tell teh entire story. E.g. an old factory building converted to housing defintely puts dent in commercial property tax revenue, however it also results in increases residential property tax revenue. However it also results in huge expnsess to the city to service the population that now occupies what was non residentail property at one time. My point.....we could do ourselves well if instead of looking for continual sources of new revenue ( E.g. comm property) we s/b looking at the expenses ......but local pols are very, very hesitant to touch third rail of local politics.....cutting expenses....it's much easier to increase sales taxes on out of town diners then to privatize the fire dept,the school custodians, and the library...if our local pols were serious we could slash expenses but then they'd be voted out of office.......
Word Verification "DETAXO"
Jahn - All thought provoking comments, but you still haven't persuaded me to change my position. Bottom line is any incentive used to increase the commercial base (your Hanover example is very speculative - I hope your 10 prediction is incorrect) is a good one in my opinion. Other City's have adopted policies that have paid dividends after the abatement period ended.
Chris we give the Hand It Over Theater millions in constr subsidies then in addition to that we waive their taxes for 10 yrs at $750,000 per year............i mean how many dollars are the taxpayers supposed to subsidize to a private business.......in the hope that 10 years down the road the venture MIGHT or MAYBE throw off a tax benefit and/or some spin off.
Then these so called entrepenuers get all kinds of cultural awards for their theatre venture..........good lord I s/b getting a cultural award for all teh tax dollars of mine that went to subsidize the place..........plus the city is giving them free and/or discounted parking at the Fed'l Square parking garage, too. Is what is good for The Hand It Over Theatre also good for the Summer Nationals?
As Howie Carr would say these guys got their snouts in the public trough probably into perpetuity.
T&G reported the place is barely breaking even as a theatre operation that had a great 1st year .......so I am supposed to believe that in 10 years from now that the place will be tossing off enough add'l cash to ante up $750,000 in property taxes that they now dont pay and frankly couldnt pay if they had to.
This is just another Civic Center in the making that the Worc taxpayers will be subsidizing for years via waived property taxes.
Chris 10 years is a long time.
If I hear of these 2 "entrepeneurs" coming to the city to subsidize their restaurant constr....then i'll be down at city hall with my pitchfork and My tea party pals.
And BTW how do they a get resataurnt in there w/o any parking? Rest's are supposed to have a certain ratio of parking spaces to seats.
Any other spin off from the theatre.......like maybe they'll allow that Polish Sausage vendor cart to peddle his sandwiches when the plays get over.......not on a pig's ass will that ever happen.....the street cart vendor is mere serf to these kings of Broadway ...
"Populate the downtown with solid middle class citizens and business will find its own way to Worcester w/o any incentives."
hard to argue with this statement
Blute reported this morning that the North Sh. Music Circus in Beverly will close before their season even gets under way this summer. Financial issues to the tune of a $1.5M deficit going forawrd............anyone care to guess if the city of Beverly will pony up the $1.5M? I say they wont.
Did the town of Framingham bail out the Carousel Theatre on Framinghams northside years ago when it went kaput...no...!!!!!
What I think will maybe happen is that private funds will come forward in Beverly and at least keep the thing running for this season.
Anyone think that if I wanted to take over teh twin Paris Cinemas and reopen it an arts venue (consistent with the art of the past) that the City would subsidize me with even $1.00?
Dittos for the Bijou and the Foothills. Why is Hand It Over Theatre such a favored child?
Millions for The Hand It Over Theatre in Worcester. Nuttin' for poolz. The fuedal lords need their entertertainment venue in Worc and kiddies be dammed. Hey maybe they can at least run one of those Motion Odessy real life like movie rides from Splash Mtn?
I liked Clive today.
Paulie's Point of View - I do have to argue with that statement on one point. The caveat is we have an equitable tax rate. Not if business still pays over double the rate as residents.
Jahn said: "And BTW how do they a get restaurant in there w/o any parking? Rest's are supposed to have a certain ratio of parking spaces to seats."
Jahn,
This is one of the things wrong with the Worcester citizenry. Did you read my diatribe on my Canal District walk a few weeks back? We actually parked the car and walked. Why is it that in Worcester, if folks don’t have parking at the front door of a store or restaurant, they either don’t support the venture or whine about it in the newspapers, on blogs or all three.
Worcester is a city! Why do we have to add more parking especially downtown? There is so much parking that we don’t need more. What we need is actual pedestrians walking around. I suggest those reading this get out of their cars and start walking.
BTW, There is the Federal Sq. Garage right across the street from the Hanover and the adjoining restaurant. That is more than sufficient for the new restaurant.
Although I park for free in the Registry parking lot and walk to the Hanover when I take in a show.
David my amigo.......i am not looking for front row parking when I dine out........i like to burn off a few calories walking from my caaaah to & from my dining venue......with my S.O. and My Glock :) just kidding. Did you and your cross the common that night?
I think you miss my point. This not about nearby parking. Thsi is about teh Worc zoning ordance that requires "X" # of parkings spaces based on # of seats and/or sq footage of a given retail establismnet.......I cannot get a one parking space variance to erect a singel family home (2 are req'd and I have only 1)...yet CDC's get parkign requirements waived and reduced by 60 to 70% of req'd spaces and If The Hand It Over Restaurant needs parking variances they will get em merely by asking for them....... ZBA will rubber stamp it.....
Didnt The Hand It Over Theatre entrepeneurs tell teh city fathers they needed parking across the street at Fed'l Sq garage for their taxpayer subsidized entertainment venue? (at a discount price) BTw they had to have gotten a parking variance or special permit as well for the Hand It Over Theatre.....b/c the place hadnt operated as a theatre for years.....and it loses its pre existing use/"grandfathering" after 2 years of non use as a theatre..........and they got to go b4 ZBA for re-use
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