The more I follow this real estate tax rate arguement, I really don't think a vote against the lowest residential rate with a slightly reduction in the commercial base has minimal impact to solidifying our commercial tax base or attracting new commercial business.
Jahn, I don't care what you say the Philly Plan is the thing we need to concentrate on. Target and publicly identify 50 under-valued under-utlized properties for commercial development:
- lock in assessed value for ten years
- waive all permitting fees
- waive all water/sewer connection fees
21 comments:
Philly plan came up in passing at the mayor's small biz round table this week...
And when no commercial establishment can be found that want to locate on these 50 under utilized properties, we end up with 50 more low income housing projects on them.
I would think most of the owners of these under utilized properties probably have them listed with Commercial RE brokers. If they can't sell them, do we really think the city and it's marketing team can sell them.
So.......Lets start with the AUD and UNUMs soon to vacated offices.
Most Worc underutilzed comm. sites can only find users that wanna place on them large plywood boxes for old clothing donations....and what's the first thing the city does...........give em the vendor pushcart routine and push em right outta buisiness ....telling them they are going to regulate them and even mandate that they be painted "neutral" colors.
Here's a little wake up call for the enforcers and law makers in the city. You cannot control the appearance of a structure via the zoning ordianace or any other ordinance. Just Tim Murray when he started pi++ing and moaning about house(s)that are squeezed onto city lots in a sideways fashion. You dont like it, tough ++++. One would think a lawyer might know this. The zonong ordinance cannot double as the "Fashion Police"
How about we take the soon to be outlawed donation boxes, complete with the mattresses that are strewn all about them and convert each one into a portable mini PIP shelter complete with matress and a fresh change of clothing for new day.... so the PIP people will be fashionable looking as I cross the Common. Maybe we could even attach a Yellow Needle disposal box to our newly invented Portable PIP shelters?
When the hell is the insanity going to end in Worcester?!!!!!!
Jahn
Like what is kind of happening now without a Philly plan.
Again you are right they can sell them to another commercial entity, but they can sell it to a non-profit and the property disappears from the tax rolls.
The Philly Plan will help keep these properties on the tax rolls and solidify our commercial tax base.
Bill
Bill, we both know I am not sold on the Philly Plan (PP). All the Philly Plan does is push add'l taxes on the already overburdened, exisitng Worc comm. property owner.
But OK, that said, if you could sell me on the PP, I still say the city should hold back some of the abatement as a club over the head of the abatee (or is it abator?...i flunked Pig Latin).
This is similar to what goes on in the constr. industry on larger, prolonged constr deals....it's called retainage. Ya gotta have it to be certain the project is completed properly and completed timely. IN the case of the PP "the project" would be that the co. IS still operating when the PP comes to an end and that the abatee has performed as agreed. W/o a club the city is left holding the bag (reduced up front tax payments) should the abatee go down the tubes 1/2 WAY through the deal.
And OHHHH BTW, MOB seems to be playing his SMOC cards very, very close to the vest. I hate to think it B/c i tend to think well of MOB, but after watching how the situation unfolded with Clark's so called pilot paymEnt and the RELATED closure of 600ft of Downing St..well lets just say that any hearings held subsequent to last falls pilot deal with Clark were at best a farce and at worst a completely underhanded way of laying off the closure of Downing St on the immediate neighborhood. BTW has the so called "trail closure" started yet AND WHAT ARE THE ODDS that it will be deemed NOT feasible to close off Downing St. Can you say very, very low
Jahn
Properties like the HoJO, Demers Good year on Pleasant Street and Manoog Plumbing on Piedmont Street that are taking off the tax rolls put more burden on both the residential and commercial tax-payer.
Jahn, the commercial tax base has been leaving, is leaving and will be a very small portion of our tax base at the rate things are going.
We need to revers this trend thus the Philly plan.
Bill
The future vacancy at Unum building on Chestnust Street is not all bad. As it stands today, Worcester does not have a large enough office space to accomodate any large business that might want to move to Worcester. any larger business considering Worcester right now, would have to look to new construction or the rehabilitation of a building. Unum's vacancy on Chestnut Street will free up a large office space in Worcester that can immediately accomodate a larger business.
Residents like to complain that no big businesses come here, well part of the reason is because there is no where for them to move to and they are not in a position to build. I'm not saying the Unum building will be filled immediately, but it will be eventually.
I agree w/ you Bill.
What really needs to be done is to change the law(s) that allow non profits to not have to pay property taxes. I am not sure if it's a state or a fed'l law?? It may have been well intentioned when enacted but the idea of non profit housing builders, non profit credit counseling, the AARP, etc has truly strectched the meaning of the term non profit business
This notion that colleges & Hospitals are some how non-profit is in substance alotta BS, esp. given that for profit hospitals & colleges now exist.
Here's a quickie tutorial on how to make what is really a for profit bizz into a non profit bizz. At each year (or quarter end) end see how much profit is showing and then pay it out to the owner(s), key employeees, and/or all the employees...................viola.......no more profit.
I see some folks in "do gooder" type businesses that are formed as non profits and then they dupe volunteeers into giving of their time for free. End result....the "entrepeneurs" behind the formation of the non profit have more $$$$$$$$$$ left at year end to pay themselves more $$$$$$$$$$$.
Folks here's the reality of most businesses. Real estate taxes are not a huge line item in their operations, except if you're in the rental real estate business.
St Gobain might for example pay Worc $2M in taxes yearly, but this aint a big line item to them. Yes it would be nice if it was less but they have much "bigger fish to fry" in terms of expense line items.
mY point being that giving a business s break on taxes always helps, but it isnt the panacea that maNY envision it to be. Property taxes are not a deal breaker when locating a business and are not a huge consideration. Things like utility rates, insurance costs, labor costs, and actual location (site) are much larger factors in the decision making process.
Jahn
Whether a person agrees with you,that non-profits should pay property taxes, or not... What differnce does it make?
It is never ever going to happen!!! We need to focus oon things that can happen.
Before these targeted properties are gobbled up by non-profits and taken off the tax rolls.
Bill
Anonymous, I am sorry but i HAVE A HaRD TIME agreeing with you on this topic.
Just last sunday we had a front page piece about teh Central Building right on Main St possibly being razed b/c it's vacant or mostly vacant. This does not speak well to the need for office space in DT Worc? I also think the Slater & Commmerce buildings are nto exactly overloaded with tenants either .
Now I will grant you that Class C office space and Class A office space may each be a horse of a different color......however to say no one is knocking down the doors for Worc office space b/c there is no large amt of such space in one location/site, is IMO a bit of a stretch, but for the sake of DT worc Let's hope I am wrong
We've been unable to atttract businesses to new office space planned for city Sq, yet you some how think the old UNUM site has possibilities? Again lets' hope I am wrong.
The diffence that it makes is that the HoJo & Demers sites would now be paying taxes and there wounldt be a need for thses TIFs, DIF's and Phillies.
And to go OT here, the city doesnt have a revenue problem, the city as a spending problem and thats why i say b4 any college that I was President of even paid a dime in Pilot $$$$, I would insist the city gets its fiscal house in order by starting to out source many functions that govt has no business doing.
Jahn:
I agree with you when you say the City has a spending problem but
1) The dual tax rate is here and we are not going to be able to change that.
2) No law is going to be past to tax non-profits
3) Out commercial tax base is eroding
Based on these three points, the Philly Plan to me is the only answer.
Bill
Jahn:
Imagine is you could sell the buildings on Main Street that you reference and tell buyers the assessed value would be frozen for ten years and there would be no permitting or water/sewer fees.
Dont you think the building could maybe be sold versus torn down?
Bill
Jahn:
Imagine is you could sell the buildings on Main Street that you reference and tell buyers the assessed value would be frozen for ten years and there would be no permitting or water/sewer fees.
Dont you think the building could maybe be sold versus torn down?
Bill
Bill, we've given huge govt subsidies to the City Sq project and also to teh Hand It Over Theatre "Distict" and correct me if I am wrong, but I dont see anyone beating a path to the new City Sq Class A rental space or to the "theatre district" and please do not forget how long Worc has been touting City Sq to the business community.
Yes , I will give you that we're also in a modern day depression......so blame can be laid to that, too.
Point being that IMO govt subsidies will not cure what ails Worc's Comm tax base.
That said, if a manufacturer wanted to open new plant with 350 new employees IMMediately..............that would change my opinion somewhat..........only b/c lack of manufacturing jobs reaaly plagues Worc and Amer.
jahn
None of this stuff will happen overnight..
The hope is that when the Hanover TIF ends, they start paying (unless they sell to a non-profit entity). In fact that is something we need to ensure does not happen...
The verdict on what CitySquare does for our commercial tax base in not in yet, but if we did not gve the breaks that we have given them we would have en empty mall and nothing else.
Bill
Jahn,
An announcement is coming within 60 days on a residential component at CitySquare and a new hotel. With the UNUM building already underway and the Cancer Center about to start, I think this project is on pretty solid ground considering the economic conditions we're experiencing.
David, thats great news and I am happy to hear it.
The residential component better be owner occupied condos and not more Mayo apts. :) Yes we need residences in the DT, but THEY MUST BE OWNER OCCUPIED OR cs IS DEAD.
I meant to add...Bill if the housing component to CS ends up being mostly apts, the city will have ended up shooting itself in the foot b/c with more apts that means more kids and more kids means $13,000 per head to educate them....which $13,000 will quickly erode the incremental tax revenue the city receives from the new commercial property.
Also Bill, now do you really think the Hand It Over Theatre will start paying taxes when their 10 yr deal with the city expires. I figure their tax bill would be somewhere in the $750,000 range and they aint got that kinda money to spare so basically they will continue to exist only by virtue of living off the mothers milk of the taxpayers teet.....and this after the taxpayers gave em zillions in subsidies to rehab the place to begin with and then.........THEn they turn around want a 10 yr waiver of real estate taxes....which teh CC gave them and they still aint built their restauarant either. This is a classic example of why I say if the city is going to hand out subsidies to business, which subsidies have performance conditions attached to them, there have to be collectible damages if the subsidizeee does not perform.
Once these non profit welfare queens get their hands in your pockets do you really think they will ever remove them?
Shame on you.....you're smarter than that.
If The Hand It Over Restaurant comes looking for gubmint subsidies and receives them, I am leaving central Mass for good.
Jahn,
The Mayo Group project DT is being filled with young professionals! How is that not good for DT Worcester? And the Condo market is "dead in the water" right now. They can't even get them built in DT Boston. Here are the details from a recent Boston Herald article.
http://bostonherald.com/business/real_estate/view.bg?articleid=1367802
If the residential component at CitySquare is the same market as what the Mayo Group is doing in the Franklin, Portland, Salem Sreet neighborhood, it will only add to downtown Worcester's growing vitality.
David, TY for the link re the Boston condo market.
If we go back the future in 1989 we had what I used to call the White Pinnacle at Main & Austin Sts., supposedly built built by a Mr S. with huge gubmint subsidies. It was to be targeted to middle class tenants ...with Sallys abutting it and the Worc branch of the state welfare OFFICE opposite it. I "THINK" it was supposed to be condos when built
Fast forward to 2011 and dare I ask what residentail market segment lives there and how was the spin off from it these last 22+ years and please dont say the Hand It Over Theatre...another monument to gubmint subsidies. Well at the very least Sallys closed, the welfare office even left their Main & Madison site, Burwick furniture closed, the Hotten Tote Lounge closed, :)...even the Beautiful Downtown Belmar closed, etc, etc. I also think it's all rentals now and no condos, but please correct me if I am wrong.
My point is that the road to a middle class residential market in DT Worc is paved 2 feet thick with great intentions and pi++ poor results
So i just read the T&G editorial page this morning. WMRB has a piece re gubmint subsidies for dev'ment. They musta been reading my multiple posts yesterday debating with Wm, Jr. the merits of TIF's, DIF's, Phillies, etc.
Bottomline ....and to steal a FOX news line....the gubmint should not be picking winners and losers in the private market place....be it solar manufacturers; CDC built housing; or TIFs, DIFs, & Phillies....starting with a $25M freebie parking garage for City Square so the Dough Boy can keep labor peace which isnt even labeled a tif, dif, or a Philly. it's just buried in the CS deal.
So what's the scuttle butt...what Hotel is coming to DT. This is def. a plus for CS and if we have to give subsidies to the City Sq spinoffs, are they really spin offs?
BTW, WTH is my Pal Paulie Boy? I aint heard too much barking of late from that old canine :) Maybe his new beagle has him on a short rope?
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